Evidence based observation
“Those countries didn’t do it right”
@Bird on a Rock, just like America didn’t do the Vietnam War right
@Bird on a Rock, Gee it’s almost like the utopian ideal for socialism will always fall to corruption because we don’t live in a fancy post-scarcity Star Trek world where we can just make shjt from nothing.
@TheRatMan, god I love Star Trek. Wait, you aren’t implying that my favorite TV show could have implications of... of... COMMUNISM?!?!
@Bird on a Rock, “that wasn’t real socialism”
@EpicFailUser, everyone is an atheist, everything is free, they hate capitalist aliens. Yep sound right to me
@EpicFailUser, Star Trek itself isn’t communist at all. It’s very libertarian and and capitalist in fact what with pretty much anyone in the federation being able to choose their own path and life and own their own businesses. Hell, the Borg act as a warning against communism and how it reduces the beauty of the individual down into a mindless husk for the machine. I’m just saying that you’d need a post scarcity world like Star Trek where anything can be made from nothing with simple machines everyone can own and use with no hassle for any kind of socialist utopia to even be viable without collapsing. Even then though Star Trek itself shows us that liberty is still preferable even when the pieces are all set for communism to function like it’s supposed to.
@TheRatMan, you hit the nail on the head! Scarcity kills communism/socialism every time. If anything needs to be created, made, harvested, mined, assembled, innovated, etc, when a Government owns the means of production, all of the basic needs of a society will eventually fall short of satisfying those needs. The bigger the Government, the more it wastes. There is no bigger Government than a socialist/communist government. Until scarcity can be resolved, the free market is the best way to take care of society’s needs.
@TheRatMan, and that's relevant?
@Medic135, I’m not sure which comment you’re replying to here. My first one was just to add to joke and the second just helped clarify what I was saying in response to EpicFailUser
@TheRatMan, sorry, the Vietnam war one
@Bird on a Rock, I mean because democratic socialism is just capitalism with safeguards. But using examples of communism is your strawman so whatever.
@TheRatMan, someone must have never done factory work before. The Borg reducing beauty of the individual down to the mindless husk for the machine? I suppose you’re not familiar with the phrase, just another number, being used when going to work.
I couldn’t resist. Seemed like a good jab at the dreariness of doing the same job day in and day out knowing full well you can easily be replaced.
Do you mean communism? Flags imply countries, which imply political systems rather than economic systems.
[okay, bring it on]
@Truthcat, good point. Both are bad. To be fair they call themselves “socialists”.
@Truthcat, look were trying to argue here and make progress like adults. So you can take your facts and your "knowledges" and you can go shove em up your ass
@Guy Fawkes, I feel so very foolish now
@big freedom, Yeah but people pick and choose what they like. Corporate tax breaks are socialist, but that's fine apparently. So are police departments, highways, public utilities, and just about every other aspect of life. Communism is a failed experiment, but socialism is everywhere.
@Truthcat, there are social compacts that we have (occasionally) agree on and put in place like schools, roads, police depts etc. that is not socialism. That is representative democracy agreeing on what to do as a society. Socialism is state controlled economy.
Corporate tax breaks are not socialism, they’re economically studied examples of - if you want more of something, incentivize it; if you want less of something, tax it.
Cities are banking on those corporations being able to hire and employ more employees when they get those tax incentives. Those employees then put more revenue into the city, which drives a broader tax base. Less money directly from corporations = more money overall = more taxes overall
@big freedom, we can continue our discussion on this thread as your social compact/representative democracy point is kind of amazing.
So, if the majority of the electorate decides to say expand Medicare to include everyone that is no longer socialism, but representative democracy in action?
Give it whatever label you want, but @Truthcat is 100% correct that it’s a socialized system...
@A Blunt Object, and if we decide as a nation that people are in charge of their own well being? We won’t because people are always voting to take from others and give to themselves. But hey, a guy can hope.
@big freedom, you need a wealth redistribution system for any society to survive long term. If not, a snowball effect will happen and money will pool to the top. Also, buying power creates jobs, not tax breaks. As income increases so does propensity to save, savings do not get recycled through the economy and do not create demand for products. Dont equate socialism and communism. Thats like equating an orange to a banana because they both have a common aspect.
@Truthcat, communism and socialism are both economic systems, they both tend to result in totalitarianism or authoritarianism which are forms of government
@A Blunt Object, That's exactly my view. What if a representative democracy unanimously elected a socialist government? Is that no longer socialism?
The definitions are sometimes vague but it's generally accepted that socialist governments are elected. Communists consider that the first step toward communism, which is more political in that it has one party rule etc.
This seems to be the US view - if Republicans institute a socialist program, that's democracy at work but if Obama did it it's because he's a commie. Take Obamacare - it promoted/required private insurance, not state funded health care, but the right calls that socialism.
@Medic135, Despite the wide range of definitions of communism, the common thread is that it sees the existing order of society as stemming from its economic system. At a minimum, you could call it a meta-economic theory in that it subsumes socialism but it also means something more, i.e., a system that administers it. Socialism doesn't require distribution of wealth and it rewards extra effort, unlike communism.
Socialist countries usually start as democracies, and most stay that way. You can have a socialist democracy, but a communist democracy is something I can't even conceive of.
@Truthcat, I think people confuse the political and economic models, and then apply it to the entire market/nation instead of a specific industry. There are many instances where capitalism is a preferred market driver, but there are some specific industries where a socialist approach may have an advantage, with healthcare and education coming to mind most readily.
@A Blunt Object, my thoughts exactly. The right uses "socialist" purely pejoratively, which strikes me as silly simply because you can't walk a block without tripping over a socialist program that they endorse.
@Truthcat, it’s a bit of socialism because the losses were socialized but the profits were privatized.
My problem with how it happened was the amount of lies told to get it passed and the huge cost to insure not that many people really, and the fact that it’s made our healthcare system vastly worse than it was, and my overall belief that the government should absolutely NOT be involved in healthcare AT ALL
@big freedom, that's a legit belief, but the harm caused by private health care is crazy. When I was 18 I had a lymphoma and spent 2 months in the hospital, 4 surgeries, 6 months of radiation, and it cost me $15 for some admin fee. If it had happened in the US, even with insurance, I would be dead because no insurer would have paid for the treatment at the time. The nurses kept telling me I should be thankful I wasn't in the US.
I was mad about the $15, btw.
@Truthcat, well the nurse is biased. And dang that musta sucked!
Our healthcare used to be the standard by which all others were measured... until the federal government got involved and completely fûcked it up beyond recognition
@big freedom, it wasn't fun. But it was everyone who said that, not just one nurse. It was a couple of years before Mario Lemieux got the same thing, and everyone at the hospital during my checkup said that he was lucky to have NHL health coverage.
The actor who played Dexter got it a few years ago, but now its just a short course of chemo and highly curable. When I had it, CAT scans weren't around so they unzipped me from ribs to waist to have a look around.
@Truthcat, oof! Really glad you came out on top!
@big freedom, Thx man.
@big freedom, no it wasn't standard. I have bipolar disorder, and my husband had cancer. Before the affordable Care act, we were both stuck working at Walmart because we couldn't find a job that would start us with insurance without being hired full time, and insurance companies would not take us because we had pre-existing conditions. Once the care act kicked in, I was able to apply for a part time office job and get health care through covered California. Thankfully my husband is on remission and has a good job now.
@mayora13, sorry that happened to you. those are fairly recent issues (I assume you’re not 80?) and also its insurance problem not medical. I’m saying our doctors and hospitals were world class. Our insurance has been fûcked up for around 50 years... about the time federal government got overly involved.
@big freedom, is this your gap in understanding? When progressives say they want single payer, do you take that to mean government hospitals? Single payer simply is a Medicare for all type program for insurance that would leverage buying power to reduce costs. Last I checked private practices and hospitals still accept Medicare...
@A Blunt Object, now I see where you’re coming from. And where your gap in understanding comes in. Look at what happened with ACA. Actual healthcare, from Drs and hospitals, got worse. They now have to spend so much time filling out gvmt forms that they don’t have time to actually spend interacting with their patients.
So, while they’re not “government hospitals” the government is so deeply involved that it has fundamentally changed the quality of care.
And let’s look at Medicaid. Many drs will not even see you if this is your insurance. Many studies have shown that you’re actually better off with no insurance than you are with Medicaid.
Go to Craig Gottwals twitter or benefit-revolution.com. He’s. Lawyer that specializes in helping people and companies deal with changes in law dealing with healthcare. This is his specialty. According to experts, and doctors, healthcare has become demonstrably worse since ACA.
Ran out of room, but: free market good. Gvmt involved bad.
Can the interstate system, public school system, Medicare, or even the US Military serve as evidence or is it just flags today?
@A Blunt Object, those are not socialism. And the federal school system has proven to be inept... really want to hold them up as poster child for more federal involvement?
@big freedom, what's you alternative to public schools? Only rich kids can get an education?
@vampirefork, opposite of federal program. Local neighborhoods or at most city run. There should be no federal monopoly on education.
@big freedom, so rich communities get good funding and good education. Poor communities get bad funding and bad education.
@vampirefork, local communities get local education. They get to decide how much of their dollars go to education. It’s been proven that more federal funding has negative impact on scores and student abilities.
I honestly do not get you people that put your faith in a giant, distant, bloated, inefficient, ineffective bureaucracy that has proven to be unworthy of your trust. What have you seen that honestly shows you that they know, better than you, what’s best for you?
@big freedom, sure they are, they take your taxes for funding and use that money without your input. The only difference is you might see value in some of those things.
I do fail to understand how you see Medicare as not socialism, but expanding it to everyone would be.
BTW there is no federal school system outside of service academies. It’s a local government responsibility, and I’d happily hold the one I reside in up as an example.
@big freedom, I don't trust them. No one I know trusts the government. But who do you trust? I find everyone untrustworthy and smaller communities, which is technically a government, are just as corrupt as big government. If you hate socialism and communism and still live in the red scare then fine, have fun with that, but could you stop spreading your paranoia?
@vampirefork, what the fûck are you talking about? Red scare paranoia?
YOU can actually makes changes in local politics, where you cannot in national politics. If you don’t understand that then there is literally no point in this discussion.
@big freedom, you've posted like 5 socialism memes in the last day. It's kinda obvious you have an obsession about it.
@A Blunt Object, there is no federal school system? Are you rètarded? https://www.ed.gov/
@vampirefork, have you seen the study that almost 1/2 of millennials have a positive view of socialism? That scares me. National Socialism always fails. So yeah, I want to bring it to the forefront of discussion and shed light on how terrible it is. Sorry not sorry
@vampirefork, and I’ve posted 2... but who’s counting?
@big freedom, since you didn’t actually provide a link, I think your confusing the Department of Education with a system of physical schools or are including schools on military bases...
But please share with me how I’m of lesser mind for knowing that...
@A Blunt Object, literally too stupid to insult
@big freedom, I can always count on civility in these conversations, even for a lack of factual evidence. Keep it classy friend!
@vampirefork, I found the edgy commy kid
@Medic135, never supported it but I guess you just proved that guy right for the public school's teaching reading.
@vampirefork, supes edge
@A Blunt Object, ok since I have a little bit of time, I’ll indulge your (I can only assume) troll question.
The link above is to the department of education, a federal bureaucracy that oversees all public schools across the nation. They decide what schools should teach, must teach, and cannot teach. They come up with asinine programs like “common core” math. Schools that do not go along with the dept of ed. guidelines risk having federal funding pulled from their budgets. This is money that the government has taken from a local community, takes 60% for administrative purposes, and then returns to us as long as our schools comply with their mandates.
My assertion is that my community would be better off if the 100% of that money stayed here to begin with and we didn’t have to comply with moronic federal policies.
@big freedom, not a troll question, but a serious inquiry based on your contention that there was an actual school system at the federal level instead of an institution that sets guidelines.
Seeking clarity of your understanding of a topic does not make me a “troll” nor does it make me as you so eloquently put “retarded.”
Now to your point. Do you think that kids shouldn’t learn some sort standard curriculum so they have a minimum level of knowledge as they progress? If there’s no standardization then 7th grade competency in one state or town becomes 9th or 5th grade in another. What happens when the child moves or goes to college at a different level of exposure than others?
I’m also curious where you’re finding your 60% admin number as over 75% of the $68 billion budget goes to loans and grants.
I’ll give you that your community may be enriched by not having to pay for the bureaucracy, but would your students be if their curriculum was influenced by local political pressures?
@A Blunt Object, “some sort of standard curriculum” and your slippery slope is a bit ridiculous. Same argument homophobes make against gay marriage... “what happens when people start marrying dogs?” Deal with it then, or don’t because it won’t happen... idc.
Students are influenced by political pressure now. If you don’t like it what recourse do you have? If it were local you could really affect change. Or move. Now because of federal meddling you cannot affect it or move out from under it.
75% of budget SPENDING goes to loans and grants. That does not account for what was collected, which is impossible to know because of “general fund”
60% comes from cbo reports about taxed federal income vs what is given back to most communities. There is no argument that federal government is extremely inefficient with money right? More than 1/2 of all your taxes are going to interest payments on deficit and that number is only growing. The government is stealing from us and giving it to their
@A Blunt Object, pt 2.
Giving it to their cronies, which in case of school system, is teachers unions.
There was a great study done a couple years ago about money given to unions vs given back to schools, school programs, or teachers. It’s striking amount of theft.
@big freedom, so let’s get the contradictions out of the way first, because you’re all the place here.
Is 60% coming back or used for admin costs?
If it’s coming from the CBO report is it 60% of total tax revenue going back to state/local programs?
If it’s 60% going back, how can 50% be used for interest payments?
How can it be 50% in interest when payments are 363 billion, and revenue is 3.422 trillion? Even if you just count against individual income tax and no other revenue it’s not close to 50%.
You do yourself a disservice by exaggerating and making things up to prove a point...
@A Blunt Object, I didn’t have time to pull exact numbers. But those are pretty good ballpark ranges.
Payments of $363B with revenue of $3.4T that’s 90% loss. Even worse than I thought. Thanks for helping prove the point.
@big freedom, wow. So those “facts” feel right then...
Also, it’s about 10.6%. Maybe you needed some standard curriculum in your school...
@A Blunt Object, umm I’m not a dr or anything, but $363B in payments and $3.4T in revenue... is 10% payments which equals 90% loss. I know, math is hard right!
@big freedom, so if you made $300 and I took $30 I’d have/you would have lost 90% of your cash?
Your previous comment about me applies here...
@A Blunt Object, no... if you took $300 away from me (your revenue) and gave me $30 back (your budget) you’d have kept 90%. My previous comment stands as is.
@big freedom, ok so here’s the thing, this is pretty far down the thread so I doubt anyone is paying attention besides us.
Seriously go ask someone you trust is good at math, that if the government makes $3.422 trillion and spends $363 billion on interest, what percentage of the revenue is being spent on interest?
Politics aside, this is fundamental math, and I’m a little sad for you right now.
@A Blunt Object, you’ve used a logical fallacy and moved the goal post. Before you said $363B in payments and $3.4T in revenue. I don’t see that you applied the payment as interest only. If I missed that, my mistake and that’s clearly not what we were discussing.
If you’ve gone back and edited to change the context, shame on you. If I just missed it, shame on me.
@big freedom, you claimed 50% of my taxes (federal revenue) was going to interest payments in the post about 10 up from here. My contention this entire time was countering this point.
You set the goal posts on this, and they haven’t moved...
@A Blunt Object, completely my mistake! I was under impression we were talking about the amount of waste and graft built into what they take and what community gets back.
Thanks for clarifying and pointing that out.
@big freedom, no worries, I think we left our other post on good terms, so let’s table the remainder of this debate for another day. Cheers 🍻
@big freedom, holy sh!t if this post isn't evidence enough of how small your d!ck is and financially stressed you are I dont know what is 🤣 edit: more specifically how triggered you are in any political thread
@CellSword, angry little man lashes out with ad hominem attack... again. I actually feel sad for you.
@big freedom, whatever helps you sleep dude 😘
@CellSword, knowing there are poor shills like you out there actually keeps me awake. Scared that morons have the right to vote affect the rest of us. Wish you couldn’t.
@big freedom, 🤣😘
Holy sh1t, can we stop with the dumb political pictures? All that happens is people bitching at each other in the comments.
@vampirefork, You must not have been around during the 2016 presidential election, it seemed like 8 out of every 10 pics were political and at least 5 of them were anti-republican while the rest anti-democrat, it was pure anarchy.
@Jaune Arc, nah, I was. Probably just blocked out the memory of it.
@vampirefork, I notice that you get upset when they go against your tribal beliefs. Get out of your confirmation bias from time to time?
@big freedom, irony.
@big freedom, you sir are an ass....... good day
@benderama, you miss, are a complete fûcking douche nozzle. I want to be there when karma dry fûcks your àss with a cactus. Go step in front of oncoming traffic
@big freedom, hahahahahha I love making you mad
@big freedom, and how dare you assume my gender
@benderama, hahaha. Just like my 6 year old daughter loves antagonizing her older sister. Glad you have the maturity of a 6 year old girl. It really explains your mental state.
@benderama, i actually picture you about like a Barbie doll. Just this genderless, beta fûcktard.
@big freedom, oh for sure I am clinically insane, be happy that I don’t know where you live..... or do I???
@benderama, I wish you did. I’d love to meet you at the door with my dog biting you in the place where most people have genitals.
@big freedom, but your dog loves me
@benderama, nope. Literally everyone hates you. Even your mom does. Obviously
@big freedom, I don’t have a mom, I was born in a test tube, I’m a clone
@benderama, Fûck off kid.
@big freedom, kid? That’s ageism! You have no idea how old I am
@big freedom, good night cupcake 🧁
On paper socialism is the better economic system over capitalism. The problem is in the real world socialism is used by dictators and the corrupt to steal power and wealth. Capitalism has some inherent protections by also will eventually succumb. In the case of the USA we were fortunate to have morally good people in place at the right time to fight back. Sadly this is no longer the case and the corrupt now run our country.
@DamienD, any form of government and economic system can succumb to corruption. Having a direct democracy is a good way to prevent this with proper checks and balances. Socialism isnt bad, nor is capitalism. However, capitalism with monopolies is called an oligarchy (what the usa currently has). However, the more antimonopoly laws you have, or the more taxes for the rich we get closer to socialism, but, leaving the status quo leads to communism and perfect monopolies. Socialism is used by dictators because it allows them to control the means of production, however, socialism doesn’t need to have this centralized or even should, this is where democratic socialism comes in play. Ignorant people see the word socialism and go bat sh!t crazy, but in reality its the future due to simple math regarding income, jobs, automation, population increase.
*has to finance a couch, gets a fifth Shrek movie, up to eyeballs in debt*
“SoCiAliSm DoEsN’t WoRk”
Is he dabbing?
To create a utopia you must first create utopians. That’s why socialism and communism don’t work.